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	<title>Comments on: In which H.o.p. visits Club Penguin</title>
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	<link>http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/2008/08/08/in-which-hop-visits-club-penguin/</link>
	<description>"A sometimes notion is better than no thread at all."  Unsuccessfully attributed to Ken Kesey</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 00:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Idyllopus</title>
		<link>http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/2008/08/08/in-which-hop-visits-club-penguin/#comment-342526</link>
		<dc:creator>Idyllopus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 03:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/?p=3012#comment-342526</guid>
		<description>Yeah.  I did read somewhere that kids would arrange with each other to meet on Club Penguin.

Certainly won't be spending any money on it here.  I've the feeling the fascination will be very short lived.  H.o.p. spent hours earning enough CP coins to get a pet Puffle.  The rules are that you have to visit the Puffle once an hour when you're logged on or it might run off.  H.o.p. had logged out appropriately but the next day when he returned the Puffle had run off.  This didn't endear Club Penguin to him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah.  I did read somewhere that kids would arrange with each other to meet on Club Penguin.</p>
<p>Certainly won&#8217;t be spending any money on it here.  I&#8217;ve the feeling the fascination will be very short lived.  H.o.p. spent hours earning enough CP coins to get a pet Puffle.  The rules are that you have to visit the Puffle once an hour when you&#8217;re logged on or it might run off.  H.o.p. had logged out appropriately but the next day when he returned the Puffle had run off.  This didn&#8217;t endear Club Penguin to him.</p>
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		<title>By: Susan Och</title>
		<link>http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/2008/08/08/in-which-hop-visits-club-penguin/#comment-342523</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan Och</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 03:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/?p=3012#comment-342523</guid>
		<description>As a mom, I think what happens on Club Penguin is that kids who already know each other, but who are not allowed to chat on AOL because they are too young, get together and talk about other people they know. They find it interesting for a while trying to figure out how to manipulate their penguins, but after that there's not much else to do.

Maybe there's more to it, after all you can spend money on that site somehow. We never had any real money left over for a virtual world, so I wouldn't know. Club Penguin lasted a only a few months as a fascination around here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a mom, I think what happens on Club Penguin is that kids who already know each other, but who are not allowed to chat on AOL because they are too young, get together and talk about other people they know. They find it interesting for a while trying to figure out how to manipulate their penguins, but after that there&#8217;s not much else to do.</p>
<p>Maybe there&#8217;s more to it, after all you can spend money on that site somehow. We never had any real money left over for a virtual world, so I wouldn&#8217;t know. Club Penguin lasted a only a few months as a fascination around here.</p>
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		<title>By: nina</title>
		<link>http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/2008/08/08/in-which-hop-visits-club-penguin/#comment-342055</link>
		<dc:creator>nina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 12:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/?p=3012#comment-342055</guid>
		<description>I'm very touched by what you said to me and about me, Juli. Thank you. I think of you as someone with great empathy, a generous and loving heart, interested in people and what they say. 

I think you are probably right, that people are a little afraid of looking deeper into themselves. I think you are also right, that most people want to be loved above all, and respected and appreciated. 

What you wrote here was also reminding me of something my SIL said once. She is almost an architect. I say almost because she did all the course work and then never wrote the dissertation. So for years she's worked as a kind of highly trained draftsperson, doing a lot of training of others. I remember that she said one time that the most terrifying thing in the world to her was a blank, white sheet of paper. She said this because not surprisingly an architect-in-the-making has to draw things and so some drawing classes are a requirement. Here she was taking all kinds of math classes I'm sure I'd not be able to manage, but she admitted to fearing a blank piece of paper. It seemed to be that there were limitless possibilities, no defined task, that were the things that terrified her about that. I don't think it was particularly a fear of the mechanics of drawing, just this idea of everything being wide open, all choices were hers to make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m very touched by what you said to me and about me, Juli. Thank you. I think of you as someone with great empathy, a generous and loving heart, interested in people and what they say. </p>
<p>I think you are probably right, that people are a little afraid of looking deeper into themselves. I think you are also right, that most people want to be loved above all, and respected and appreciated. </p>
<p>What you wrote here was also reminding me of something my SIL said once. She is almost an architect. I say almost because she did all the course work and then never wrote the dissertation. So for years she&#8217;s worked as a kind of highly trained draftsperson, doing a lot of training of others. I remember that she said one time that the most terrifying thing in the world to her was a blank, white sheet of paper. She said this because not surprisingly an architect-in-the-making has to draw things and so some drawing classes are a requirement. Here she was taking all kinds of math classes I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;d not be able to manage, but she admitted to fearing a blank piece of paper. It seemed to be that there were limitless possibilities, no defined task, that were the things that terrified her about that. I don&#8217;t think it was particularly a fear of the mechanics of drawing, just this idea of everything being wide open, all choices were hers to make.</p>
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		<title>By: Idyllopus</title>
		<link>http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/2008/08/08/in-which-hop-visits-club-penguin/#comment-342002</link>
		<dc:creator>Idyllopus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 06:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/?p=3012#comment-342002</guid>
		<description>Nina, you're a deep person.  I mean, it's obvious the moment someone sees you.  "Hmm, deeper than the every day individual."  You obviously listen more intently.  You obviously watch more intently.  You obviously are more intently engaged with the world.  You are obviously measuring, reflecting, meditating on all that goes on about you.  Someone asks you a question and it's obvious that you are giving meaning to their question and considering a meaningful response.  The same when you ask a question.  You do all this with a great empathy so the last thing on your mind is that you might end up being threatening or off-putting to someone.  You are probably one of the more honestly empathetic individuals I've ever met.  And you've got a great and an intelligent sense of humor, too.  

I think of a conversation I had with someone who asked me, since I was a writer, if I thus had to sit alone with myself and think a lot.  I said yes and she laughed and said that would frighten her, that she wouldn't be able to do it.  And yet she seemed to me to be deeper than your usual person (and she is) and I thought even that she would bring up the subject within five minutes of my meeting her said quite a bit about her.

The woman above isn't an example of this, but I think there are a number of people who may fear that depth.  They sense here is a person who has spent a lot of time listening to the very quiet parts of the world and they may fear that person may have a real eye for skrying  histories, past or future, in the palm of a hand. They may fear that person can hear the soft backstage whispers even during a performance. 

In stories that kind of seer is usually an individual living on the border of town, out with the birds and talking stones and trees.  In stories that seer is usually sought out during an exceptional time in an individual's life...and by not very many.

That is a kind of archetype, of course, and so everyone has a bit of that seer in them, which knows a little more than their other parts about the past, present or future.  Some have more and some have less of that seer.  Some fear that bit of seer within themselves and back away from it, and some fear that seer they may sense in another.  

Like they come upon an especially still pond of water,  and if they look at it straight on and too long what might they see.  What might that pond find out about them?

Which may seem odd as what most all people want is to be respected and loved and appreciated.  But perhaps what they want to have respected, loved and appreciated they also may fear to be a fabrication, a lie, and worry about a crack through which the authentic self may shine and be discovered by one who is used to looking deeper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nina, you&#8217;re a deep person.  I mean, it&#8217;s obvious the moment someone sees you.  &#8220;Hmm, deeper than the every day individual.&#8221;  You obviously listen more intently.  You obviously watch more intently.  You obviously are more intently engaged with the world.  You are obviously measuring, reflecting, meditating on all that goes on about you.  Someone asks you a question and it&#8217;s obvious that you are giving meaning to their question and considering a meaningful response.  The same when you ask a question.  You do all this with a great empathy so the last thing on your mind is that you might end up being threatening or off-putting to someone.  You are probably one of the more honestly empathetic individuals I&#8217;ve ever met.  And you&#8217;ve got a great and an intelligent sense of humor, too.  </p>
<p>I think of a conversation I had with someone who asked me, since I was a writer, if I thus had to sit alone with myself and think a lot.  I said yes and she laughed and said that would frighten her, that she wouldn&#8217;t be able to do it.  And yet she seemed to me to be deeper than your usual person (and she is) and I thought even that she would bring up the subject within five minutes of my meeting her said quite a bit about her.</p>
<p>The woman above isn&#8217;t an example of this, but I think there are a number of people who may fear that depth.  They sense here is a person who has spent a lot of time listening to the very quiet parts of the world and they may fear that person may have a real eye for skrying  histories, past or future, in the palm of a hand. They may fear that person can hear the soft backstage whispers even during a performance. </p>
<p>In stories that kind of seer is usually an individual living on the border of town, out with the birds and talking stones and trees.  In stories that seer is usually sought out during an exceptional time in an individual&#8217;s life&#8230;and by not very many.</p>
<p>That is a kind of archetype, of course, and so everyone has a bit of that seer in them, which knows a little more than their other parts about the past, present or future.  Some have more and some have less of that seer.  Some fear that bit of seer within themselves and back away from it, and some fear that seer they may sense in another.  </p>
<p>Like they come upon an especially still pond of water,  and if they look at it straight on and too long what might they see.  What might that pond find out about them?</p>
<p>Which may seem odd as what most all people want is to be respected and loved and appreciated.  But perhaps what they want to have respected, loved and appreciated they also may fear to be a fabrication, a lie, and worry about a crack through which the authentic self may shine and be discovered by one who is used to looking deeper.</p>
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		<title>By: Idyllopus</title>
		<link>http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/2008/08/08/in-which-hop-visits-club-penguin/#comment-341968</link>
		<dc:creator>Idyllopus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 04:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/?p=3012#comment-341968</guid>
		<description>Ronnie, H.o.p. says, "Thank you so much.  That's very nice to say.  That lightens me up a lot.  I hope you'll enjoy the t-shirt.  Sincerely, H.o.p."

And I hope you enjoy it as well.  Marty gets stopped nearly every time he wears one of H.o.p.'s shirts, people asking where he got it.  Last weekend he was stopped by three separate people in one store.  

The cashiers at Old Navy were all asking where they could buy one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ronnie, H.o.p. says, &#8220;Thank you so much.  That&#8217;s very nice to say.  That lightens me up a lot.  I hope you&#8217;ll enjoy the t-shirt.  Sincerely, H.o.p.&#8221;</p>
<p>And I hope you enjoy it as well.  Marty gets stopped nearly every time he wears one of H.o.p.&#8217;s shirts, people asking where he got it.  Last weekend he was stopped by three separate people in one store.  </p>
<p>The cashiers at Old Navy were all asking where they could buy one.</p>
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		<title>By: ronniepitman</title>
		<link>http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/2008/08/08/in-which-hop-visits-club-penguin/#comment-341962</link>
		<dc:creator>ronniepitman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 04:07:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/?p=3012#comment-341962</guid>
		<description>Keep heart, H.o.p. and nina. Sometimes people are listening even if they don't respond. And H.o.p., I'm a big fan of your art. I plan to buy one of your shirts tomorrow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keep heart, H.o.p. and nina. Sometimes people are listening even if they don&#8217;t respond. And H.o.p., I&#8217;m a big fan of your art. I plan to buy one of your shirts tomorrow.</p>
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		<title>By: nina</title>
		<link>http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/2008/08/08/in-which-hop-visits-club-penguin/#comment-341926</link>
		<dc:creator>nina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 01:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/?p=3012#comment-341926</guid>
		<description>I don't understand what it takes to get people to respond or engage, either. But I feel that way not only about the internet. I feel that way in face-to-face conversations, too. There are exceptions. But mostly I don't get whatever it is that is involved with talking with other people. I feel as if the penguins walk away from me, too. I try to talk about things that are interesting, that I feel something about, things I think about. And mostly I end up with the idea that I must be talking in some embarrassingly personal way, or going on and on. More and  more I find myself not really wanting to talk to people much at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t understand what it takes to get people to respond or engage, either. But I feel that way not only about the internet. I feel that way in face-to-face conversations, too. There are exceptions. But mostly I don&#8217;t get whatever it is that is involved with talking with other people. I feel as if the penguins walk away from me, too. I try to talk about things that are interesting, that I feel something about, things I think about. And mostly I end up with the idea that I must be talking in some embarrassingly personal way, or going on and on. More and  more I find myself not really wanting to talk to people much at all.</p>
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		<title>By: ronniepitman</title>
		<link>http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/2008/08/08/in-which-hop-visits-club-penguin/#comment-341875</link>
		<dc:creator>ronniepitman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 22:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/?p=3012#comment-341875</guid>
		<description>Reminds me of the scene in Bowling for Columbine, in which Michael Moore joins the NRA, then interviews the NRA's president, Charlton Heston. The penguin walked away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reminds me of the scene in Bowling for Columbine, in which Michael Moore joins the NRA, then interviews the NRA&#8217;s president, Charlton Heston. The penguin walked away.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim McCulloch</title>
		<link>http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/2008/08/08/in-which-hop-visits-club-penguin/#comment-341791</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim McCulloch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/?p=3012#comment-341791</guid>
		<description>I don't know if I became a legend, but I confess I was kinda pleased, in an unfortunate literary ego-inflation sort of way, when I received what I guess you could call an accolade-in-passing from some guy, in the midst of his tirade against me, when he called me a "silver-tongued devil."  I think he really was serious about the devil part.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if I became a legend, but I confess I was kinda pleased, in an unfortunate literary ego-inflation sort of way, when I received what I guess you could call an accolade-in-passing from some guy, in the midst of his tirade against me, when he called me a &#8220;silver-tongued devil.&#8221;  I think he really was serious about the devil part.</p>
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		<title>By: Idyllopus</title>
		<link>http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/2008/08/08/in-which-hop-visits-club-penguin/#comment-341785</link>
		<dc:creator>Idyllopus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:01:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/?p=3012#comment-341785</guid>
		<description>I've never quite understood what happens with the internet where people talk about misunderstandings because you're not within visual range.  I mean, the internet was not the genesis of communication via letters.  I remember when I used to write letters before it and it never occurred to me  to use smiley faces as punctuating reassurance that this was friendly communication.  But I didn't get it when I was 12 or 13 either, as I sat watching friends sign off handwritten notes with things like smiley faces, around the same period that they would begin adopting punctuating their i's with hearts.

Anyway, maybe you should have used smiley faces at tx.guns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve never quite understood what happens with the internet where people talk about misunderstandings because you&#8217;re not within visual range.  I mean, the internet was not the genesis of communication via letters.  I remember when I used to write letters before it and it never occurred to me  to use smiley faces as punctuating reassurance that this was friendly communication.  But I didn&#8217;t get it when I was 12 or 13 either, as I sat watching friends sign off handwritten notes with things like smiley faces, around the same period that they would begin adopting punctuating their i&#8217;s with hearts.</p>
<p>Anyway, maybe you should have used smiley faces at tx.guns.</p>
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		<title>By: Idyllopus</title>
		<link>http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/2008/08/08/in-which-hop-visits-club-penguin/#comment-341777</link>
		<dc:creator>Idyllopus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/?p=3012#comment-341777</guid>
		<description>Yes, in the early days of these internets I too hung around some usenet groups but mostly I read.  

Somehow, I never made it around to tx.guns.

I bet, after you left, they talked about you for quite some time.  You may have even become a legend of sorts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, in the early days of these internets I too hung around some usenet groups but mostly I read.  </p>
<p>Somehow, I never made it around to tx.guns.</p>
<p>I bet, after you left, they talked about you for quite some time.  You may have even become a legend of sorts.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim McCulloch</title>
		<link>http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/2008/08/08/in-which-hop-visits-club-penguin/#comment-341748</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim McCulloch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.idyllopuspress.com/meanwhile/?p=3012#comment-341748</guid>
		<description>Well, that was a great story about the mind control gases. 

I don't think the internets are a very good medium for having conversations.  Maybe the medium emits a mind control gas that makes the penguins say nothing, or get up and wander off.  I dunno. 

You _can_ get people to talk, on the internets, but I don't recommend it. In a previous internet life, back when usenet newsgroups seemed to the naive (i.e., me) to be a possible way of holding reasonable conversations about important things, I would interject my views about political or social topics on newsgroups devoted to those subjects, and the penguins did not get up and disappear.  For example, there was a newsgroup called tx.guns inhabited by gun zealots, and I thought, gee, why not try to reason with these folks?  They are not necessarily natural born killers (which is true), so I would introduce friendly doubts about the anti-second amendment mind-control gases emitted by (source of your choice) at which moment they would not clam up and go away. No, they would exhibit many of the symptoms of road rage, which, is a gun zealot, is not necessarily what you want, and become very electronically agitated (I am glad it was only electronic).  It was really very difficult to talk to them.  They are not friendly people, when faced with disagreement.  In fact, they tried to get me fired because they noticed that my email address was a university of texas address (this was before I became a pensioner) and they concluded that I was disagreeing with them on the taxpayer's dime, on University time.  (They were not very good at reading headers.)  Anyway, they _claimed_ they ratted me out to my dean, and that I could expect immediate termination (in the lesser sense) as a result.  I don't know whether they did or not: I never heard from the dean.

Eventually, I gave up and wandered away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, that was a great story about the mind control gases. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the internets are a very good medium for having conversations.  Maybe the medium emits a mind control gas that makes the penguins say nothing, or get up and wander off.  I dunno. </p>
<p>You _can_ get people to talk, on the internets, but I don&#8217;t recommend it. In a previous internet life, back when usenet newsgroups seemed to the naive (i.e., me) to be a possible way of holding reasonable conversations about important things, I would interject my views about political or social topics on newsgroups devoted to those subjects, and the penguins did not get up and disappear.  For example, there was a newsgroup called tx.guns inhabited by gun zealots, and I thought, gee, why not try to reason with these folks?  They are not necessarily natural born killers (which is true), so I would introduce friendly doubts about the anti-second amendment mind-control gases emitted by (source of your choice) at which moment they would not clam up and go away. No, they would exhibit many of the symptoms of road rage, which, is a gun zealot, is not necessarily what you want, and become very electronically agitated (I am glad it was only electronic).  It was really very difficult to talk to them.  They are not friendly people, when faced with disagreement.  In fact, they tried to get me fired because they noticed that my email address was a university of texas address (this was before I became a pensioner) and they concluded that I was disagreeing with them on the taxpayer&#8217;s dime, on University time.  (They were not very good at reading headers.)  Anyway, they _claimed_ they ratted me out to my dean, and that I could expect immediate termination (in the lesser sense) as a result.  I don&#8217;t know whether they did or not: I never heard from the dean.</p>
<p>Eventually, I gave up and wandered away.</p>
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